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Cadets and ES, Why not?

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Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by MajorCarrales on Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:20 pm

One element of CAP that appeals to young people actually is something that many adults find lacking in todays youth...I am speaking about responsibility.

Emergency Services is one area where cadets shine. I have seen cadets from Brownsville so polished in ES that I was actually sort of ashamed to be an ADULT CAP Officer.

Yet, there are some that see CP and ES as something that is "oil and water."

The cadets I have started all seem to see ES as a place where they can be respected and given, for some the first time in their life, respect. I have noticed that they tend to take ownership of ES and feel, if not for a minute, a chance to be an adult.

Saddly, due to a lack of resources to take this to its fullest, I have to treat ES as almost an extracurricular activity. Sort of like how school students select things to do via joining teams that compete.

I don't believe that we have to split CP and ES, but that the one can improve the other. Cadets practice the ledership they learn on SARex and REDCAP deployments...while the responsibility and professionalism of properly run CAP Activities of an ES nature reinforce that which isneed in the study of LEADERSHIP.

So, cadets and ES, Why not?

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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by MajorCarrales on Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:36 pm

sgtniedrauer wrote:YES! Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation bounce

I am glad you approve. I have always regarded CAP Cadets as an important asset of CAP.

CAP experience has to be "special." ES is on of the things CAP does that is "real" and "meaningful" that cadets can take an active role in. It can focus a cadet that would otherwise spend all their time playing video games (which is not bad in itself, but is horrible if abused) or committing crimes. It also provides what school age kids need in the way of self-worth.

Many kids join gangs to "actually fit in." CAP is the best alternative to that I can think of!

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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by sgt1918 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:38 pm

Yes, Sounds awesome to me. I'd do anything to actually get into ES. That's why I joined CAP in the first place. I've spent two years getting qualified, so now I've finally reached my goals... and I'm just sitting here waiting... not sure what to do next. pale At this rate I'm gonna run out of time in the cadet program before I get a chance to actually do something.
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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by Twitch on Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:55 pm

Cadets belong in ES, but ES is not the ends to the means of the CP.


When recruiting a new cadet or Senior Member, CAP should not be made out to be an ES organization. We should be made out to be an organization that occasionally preforms ES.

Like the poster above me said, we have a fair number of people who show up, are told that they will be in an active ES program, then sit around on qualifications that can't really be used anywhere else.

Cadets should be worried about advancing their leadership and life skills training. ES is just a fun side activity.

The goal of a CAP cadet should be three diamonds, not a Master GTM badge.

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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by MajorCarrales on Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:04 pm

Twitch wrote:Cadets belong in ES, but ES is not the ends to the means of the CP.


When recruiting a new cadet or Senior Member, CAP should not be made out to be an ES organization. We should be made out to be an organization that occasionally preforms ES.

Like the poster above me said, we have a fair number of people who show up, are told that they will be in an active ES program, then sit around on qualifications that can't really be used anywhere else.

Cadets should be worried about advancing their leadership and life skills training. ES is just a fun side activity.

The goal of a CAP cadet should be three diamonds, not a Master GTM badge.

While I tend to agree, cadets that want to participate in ES should be given the widest latitude. Two current memebers of our unit were CAP cadets in the 1970s. From their ES participation they went on to careers in ES realted fields from EMS to work in law enforcement.

Yes, the goal is three diamonds, but if a cadet also seeks to serve their "community, state and nation" via ES, then is not that part of the oath they take? The answer is yes, and if we can help them...I say so be it!!!

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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by sgt1918 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:29 pm

Twitch wrote:ES is just a fun side activity.

Then why was I encouraged to spend over $500 and a lot of my time and energy getting qualified in things that will never be used? Respectfully sir, I don't believe the only intention of the cadet program is three diamonds. To some people I've met, ES is a very real thing, and a thing that cadets actively participate in. It makes no sense to me that there are so many restrictions and limitations in certain areas.
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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by MajorCarrales on Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:02 pm

sgt1918 wrote:
Twitch wrote:ES is just a fun side activity.

Then why was I encouraged to spend over $500 and a lot of my time and energy getting qualified in things that will never be used? Respectfully sir, I don't believe the only intention of the cadet program is three diamonds. To some people I've met, ES is a very real thing, and a thing that cadets actively participate in. It makes no sense to me that there are so many restrictions and limitations in certain areas.

ES, for those that wish to participate, is very serious to them. CAP relies on Cadet ground teams, aircraft marshallers and radio personnel to help bolster the effectiveness of CAP Emergency Services.

I am very much a "WHOLE CAP" kind of person, by that I mean the best way to experience CAP is to try a bit of it all.

We can have it both ways, a CP and an ES style unit. This is interesting, let us explore this more.

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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by Cadet Tillett on Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:54 pm

Twitch wrote:ES is just a fun side activity.

In that case, I assume being a paramedic is a fun hobby, or maybe firefighting. ES is about saving lives, not having a good time.

Do me a favor, and if that is your mindset, stay out of the ES side of CAP. We need people who take it seriously and consider themselves to be doing something worthwhile with their time and energies.

Twitch wrote:The goal of a CAP cadet should be three diamonds, not a Master GTM badge.

The goal of a CAP cadet should be excellence in all we do. That includes ES, not just getting your Spaatz. If a cadet chooses to pursue GTM training as opposed to another pip on his shoulder, I say maybe he has his priorities straighter than we do.

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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by sgt1918 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:46 am

As far as Emergency Services goes, my unit is not going to have a ground team capable of anything but urban ELT searches in the foreseeable future. So my real interest is in disaster relief.

The National Commander sent out a policy letter a few months back, and if followed to the letter essentially means cadets have no place in disaster relief, period, and would be of more use showing up as non-CAP volunteers. According to this letter, they would be limited to maintenance and support roles. Is that the case?
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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by Twitch on Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:36 pm

Cadet Tillett wrote:
Twitch wrote:ES is just a fun side activity.

In that case, I assume being a paramedic is a fun hobby, or maybe firefighting. ES is about saving lives, not having a good time.

Do me a favor, and if that is your mindset, stay out of the ES side of CAP. We need people who take it seriously and consider themselves to be doing something worthwhile with their time and energies.

Twitch wrote:The goal of a CAP cadet should be three diamonds, not a Master GTM badge.

The goal of a CAP cadet should be excellence in all we do. That includes ES, not just getting your Spaatz. If a cadet chooses to pursue GTM training as opposed to another pip on his shoulder, I say maybe he has his priorities straighter than we do.

[On this forum we speak respectfully to each other. This post was in violation of Guideline #1 and as been edited as needed-SgtNiedrauer(Moderator)]

In CAP. Don't compare CAP to the volunteer fire service, because the two are nothing alike.

Excuse me, stay out of my Area of Operations, and my sights in general if you're gonna presume to speak like me like that. I'm also an Emergency Medical Tech, I'm also a GTM1 working on my GTL, and a MS working on my MO. I've been out on SAREX's in the rain, sleet, snow, below freezing, and above 100 F. I've also caught two or three real world missions.

Yes, ES is important. But not nearly as important as many people in CAP want to pretend it is. Many Groups and Squadrons have a small operations tempo.

To the Cadet who spent over $500 on gear, yeah, I've been there too. And looking back, that money could have been spent much better elsewhere.

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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by Cadet Tillett on Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:45 pm

Twitch wrote:
When recruiting a new cadet or Senior Member, CAP should not be made out to be an ES organization. We should be made out to be an organization that occasionally preforms ES.

Keep in mind that CAP was an ES organization before there was even a Cadet Program. And ES is one of our primary missions, along with Cadet Programs. We are not merely a Cadet organization that performs ES.


Last edited by on Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by Cadet Tillett on Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:48 pm

Twitch wrote:
Cadet Tillett wrote:
Twitch wrote:ES is just a fun side activity.

In that case, I assume being a paramedic is a fun hobby, or maybe firefighting. ES is about saving lives, not having a good time.

Do me a favor, and if that is your mindset, stay out of the ES side of CAP. We need people who take it seriously and consider themselves to be doing something worthwhile with their time and energies.

Twitch wrote:The goal of a CAP cadet should be three diamonds, not a Master GTM badge.

The goal of a CAP cadet should be excellence in all we do. That includes ES, not just getting your Spaatz. If a cadet chooses to pursue GTM training as opposed to another pip on his shoulder, I say maybe he has his priorities straighter than we do.

[On this forum we speak respectfully to each other. This post was in violation of Guideline #1 and as been edited as needed-SgtNiedrauer(Moderator)]

In CAP. Don't compare CAP to the volunteer fire service, because the two are nothing alike.

Excuse me, stay out of my Area of Operations, and my sights in general if you're gonna presume to speak like me like that. I'm also an Emergency Medical Tech, I'm also a GTM1 working on my GTL, and a MS working on my MO. I've been out on SAREX's in the rain, sleet, snow, below freezing, and above 100 F. I've also caught two or three real world missions.

Yes, ES is important. But not nearly as important as many people in CAP want to pretend it is. Many Groups and Squadrons have a small operations tempo.

To the Cadet who spent over $500 on gear, yeah, I've been there too. And looking back, that money could have been spent much better elsewhere.

So do you disagree with the Core Values, or are you arguing that one of our primary missions is just fun and games?

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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by CAPWEST-1 on Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:09 pm

Let's not confuse our missions with our core values.

Our missions are AE, Cadet Programs & ES. Within the limits required by our regs & the law, there is opportunity for all members to participate in one, some or all of our missions as their time and desires allow. All are important in their own way.

There are many opportunities for cadets to participate in ES, but there are some limitations usually for reasons of safety and compliance with federal law (for example, by law FECA doesn't cover those younger than 18 y/o). It is possible to have, and I have seen, a fully qualified mission aircrew comprised entirely of cadets - all 18 or over as required by our regs.

Our core values are integrity, volunteer service, excellence & respect. They should be the guiding principles of all CAP activities regardless of the mission or the participants.

JJ


Cadet Tillett wrote:
Twitch wrote:
Cadet Tillett wrote:
Twitch wrote:ES is just a fun side activity.

In that case, I assume being a paramedic is a fun hobby, or maybe firefighting. ES is about saving lives, not having a good time.

Do me a favor, and if that is your mindset, stay out of the ES side of CAP. We need people who take it seriously and consider themselves to be doing something worthwhile with their time and energies.

Twitch wrote:The goal of a CAP cadet should be three diamonds, not a Master GTM badge.

The goal of a CAP cadet should be excellence in all we do. That includes ES, not just getting your Spaatz. If a cadet chooses to pursue GTM training as opposed to another pip on his shoulder, I say maybe he has his priorities straighter than we do.

[On this forum we speak respectfully to each other. This post was in violation of Guideline #1 and as been edited as needed-SgtNiedrauer(Moderator)]

In CAP. Don't compare CAP to the volunteer fire service, because the two are nothing alike.

Excuse me, stay out of my Area of Operations, and my sights in general if you're gonna presume to speak like me like that. I'm also an Emergency Medical Tech, I'm also a GTM1 working on my GTL, and a MS working on my MO. I've been out on SAREX's in the rain, sleet, snow, below freezing, and above 100 F. I've also caught two or three real world missions.

Yes, ES is important. But not nearly as important as many people in CAP want to pretend it is. Many Groups and Squadrons have a small operations tempo.

To the Cadet who spent over $500 on gear, yeah, I've been there too. And looking back, that money could have been spent much better elsewhere.

So do you disagree with the Core Values, or are you arguing that one of our primary missions is just fun and games?

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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by Twitch on Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:24 pm

So do you disagree with the Core Values, or are you arguing that one of our primary missions is just fun and games?

Do we save people? Yes.
Are people alive because of CAP? Yes.

However, is ES *the* primary goal of CAP? No. It's one of three.
Do ES skills carry over to CAP and life? We like to think so. Maybe they do.
But, to often, I've seen cadets and SM's turn ES into an excuse to play rambo in the woods for a weekend. These are normally the same people who can't actually preform most of the skills they wear the badge for.

Keep in mind that CAP was an ES organization before there was even a Cadet Program. And ES is one of our primary missions, along with Cadet Programs. We are not merely a Cadet organization that performs ES.

CAP is a lot of things. But cadets focus should be on the CP.

As a cadet, you are part of a Cadet Organization that also performs ES, as well as AE.

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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by JohnKachenmeister on Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:55 pm

ES is a part of the Cadet Program. Frankly, and I've been around for a few years, we could not do ES without the support of the cadets. That does not mean that cadets need to be at the tip of the spear.

ES is more than just UDF and GT. And the fact that these are the "Glory" jobs is cool, and everybody wants them, but we need cadets to do flight line, commo, admin tasks, and base support. Sure, these jobs don't have the "Hero" aspect attached to them, but you might as well learn right now that in America we fight as a team.

If I were to advise a cadet on how to spend a $500 budget for ES field gear, I would recommend a good backpack, an air mattress, a sleeping bag, a web belt with a couple of canteens, and some stuff to make you comfortable. A foam pillow, perhaps. And something to play your music on that can feed into an earphone so I don't have to listen to it!

That way I could be assured that this cadet, regardless of his assignment, would be able to comfortably stay at a mission base. If he went out on GT, fine. But otherwise he could tie down the planes, work the radio, or make the computer entries into the IMU-2, which us old guys screw up every time.

The cadets' high schools make them try to learn in an environment approximating a minimum-security prison, with locked doors and guards in the corridors to make sure you have written authorization to go to the toilet. We take those same young folks and give them an Air Force mission to perform.

Thats why high school students make the news. CAP Cadets make HISTORY!

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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by Cadet Tillett on Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:36 pm

Use of qualified CAP cadets is encouraged as much as possible on appropriate missions. Cadets should be trained in the various functions of mission operations and support as permitted.

Quote from CAPR 60-3.

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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by Add01 on Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:10 pm

I thought that this was an interesting discussion, so I brought it out from the graveyard.


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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by brawil on Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:14 am

Cadets and ES???? HECK YES!!

While we seniors are out tooling around in the airplanes looking visually or electronically for a lost aircraft, Cadets on the ground team actually 'find' all of our targets, whether training or real.

My hat's off to those who pound the ground in this essential activity Fighter Pilot
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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by Add01 on Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:19 pm

I think that Cadets and ES is totally awesome. I am a cadet myself that has most every ES qualification that is offered for cadets. I have learned so much from ES that it is unbelievable. ES can effect cadets in so many ways and prepare them for their careers and even jsut every day life. I say YES![/img]

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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

Post by sgtniedrauer on Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:12 pm

Let me seriously recommend to all cadets, get yourselves to a Wing or National ES School and get qualified by NASAR. CAP Quals, while they may be nice to have, will not get you anywhere outside of CAP.

NASAR (National Association for Search and Rescue) is recognized by virtually every SAR program out there. The fact that we have the opportunity to get these quals through CAP should be taken seriously.

I don't have a full list of CAP Events that have training/testing for NASAR, but I do know for you Texas Wing people that it is offered at the Advanced GSARSS program.

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Re: Cadets and ES, Why not?

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